Grey Armstrong, author of ObsidianTea.com and Blues instructor and DJ joins me for this episode.
Some other key facts about Grey include that he was born in Ohio, has synesthesia, loves foxes (the country ones, not the urban ones), and loves his cat T'challa Panther Lily even more. Oh, and he has blue hair.
Support Obsidian Tea on Patreon here
You can listen along to the Spotify playlist here
Grey Armstrong, author of ObsidianTea.com and Blues instructor and DJ joins me for this episode.
Some other key facts about Grey include that he was born in Ohio, has synesthesia, loves foxes (the country ones, not the urban ones), and loves his cat T'challa Panther Lily even more. Oh, and he has blue hair.
Support Obsidian Tea on Patreon here
You can listen along to the Spotify playlist here
Hi, I'm Grey Armstrong, the writer of obsidiantea.com. I really like foxes, and you're listening to Desert Island Jams with Sarah Spoon.
Sarah Spoon:Hi, I'm Sarah Spoon. And this is Desert Island Jams, a monthly podcast where I sit down with music nerds from the Lindy hop and Blues dance communities and talk about music, specifically the 10 songs they've take with them to a desert island on a tiny mp3 player. My guest this month is Grey Armstrong, who is a blues DJ and instructor who was born in Ohio. He does a lot of dance class series and anti racist classes. But he's also very well known for his blog, obsidiantea.com, which is, as far as I'm concerned, is essential reading for everybody in the partner dance community. And I encourage you all to go and have a read. As soon as we finished listening to this podcast. Welcome to Desert Island Jams.
Grey Armstrong:Thank you. Thank you for having me. I was really excited when you asked if I would want to participate in this?
Sarah Spoon:Was it this great autobiographical experience trying to pick the songs? Or were you like, yeah, 10?
Grey Armstrong:Definitely not that definitely was an experience of what songs from what genres? And what parts of me Do I want to highlight? And what songs am I excited to talk about? And it was kind of autobiographical. And then the last two or three songs are really hard. So one thing I've been exploring in the last few years is synesthesia. The experience of having your senses tied together, that I didn't realize was a thing that other people didn't do. Because I just, this is just how I've lived my life. So sounds have color, and sounds have a texture and a feeling in a space. And so like when I'm dancing, I get to kind of paint the space and become part of the painting. That is the song itself.
Sarah Spoon:Fuck, that's cool
Grey Armstrong:right?! [laughs]
Sarah Spoon:I mean, that's actually a really excellent segue, like you do my job for me because the first song on your list is Blue and Green by Miles Davis.
Grey Armstrong:So a few years back, I was listening for different swing and jazz and blues songs. And listening to a lot of different gathered playlists for trying to find just new music, new artists, new sounds, sounds that reminded me of my grandfather sounds that reminded me of like, landscape paintings, things that made me want to move and this track came on the opening that is really chill. That's really pretty. And then you hear this golden sound. And I remember stopping everything that I was doing. And I just listened. And not many songs do that to me. Where I feel so overwhelmed by the experience that I can't, I can't move because it's just it's too much sensory information. And this is one of those songs. I love the journey of it. I love the colors of it. I love the textures of it. And I love that it is such a song that in classes I use to force people to relax because it's so complicated. You can't like you can kind of have it gloss over you. But as soon as you actually start listening to it, you get sucked in and he gets stuck in this like taffy of Miles Davis and it is it is fantastic. It is a beautiful song. And I love listening to it. on repeat. I listened to it all the time. It is like my holding music. It is my take some time to breathe music it is just a suddenly I can listen to on repeat forever because you'll always hear other things in it. It's a feeling you get right after you let go of a breath, you were just holding muted plums and blues and little bits of greens. And just it is looking at a lake in the middle of the night,
Sarah Spoon:October London who is the singer of your next song, he was born in Indiana. So I just like Let the record show
Grey Armstrong:Indiana really. I found that song through Spotify A few years ago, maybe right after it came out. And I put it on. And it was another one of those songs that really made me stop, which is a lot of this playlist. And the topics are so relevant to today. And it was really profound, to kind of feel yourself go on this journey with him as he sings about this. And I thought it was a piece that was not only incredibly moving, but also relatable, like it was relatable to me. But also that it kind of took this idea that a lot of people have in the States about racism and really brought it to like a personal level. And I found that really, like really amazing as a piece of art. I feel like you can just sink into this song.
Sarah Spoon:Would it be cool to dance to that? At a blues event?
Grey Armstrong:No. I think. I do occasionally use that song in class, when I'm teaching to highlight a couple different things in terms of like, the importance of lyrical content in Black music. Just generally the Black story, Black storytelling into the Black experience at large. But dancing to that song. I feel like is probably inappropriate for most audiences most of the time. Are there exceptions? Yes. And I think it's not even particularly about race, but context. The situation I could see, dancing to that song in it feeling appropriate would be like, after a death or something of that nature, to feel connected to another living human being and like to be held through your grief. I can see that being a reason why you might dance to this. But like at a party, probably not. Particularly knowing how few blues dancers listen to lyrics. Sexy dancing to that song is is probably not [laughs] It's probably not appropriate. Regardless of like, what's happening.
Sarah Spoon:It can't help having a sexy beat. But that's not the point.
Grey Armstrong:But it is a really sexy beat is really great beat.
Sarah Spoon:It's a really sexy beat. That's but that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about whether it's appropriate to physically confirm that it's a sexy beat in public.
Grey Armstrong:Yeah, I think I think it is, it is likely not, except under very rare circumstances.
Sarah Spoon:Moving on, from that mine field, on to a bit of Leon bridges. Yeah, love a bit of that. Wikipedia described it as future soul. What do you think? How would you describe it?
Grey Armstrong:All Black genres are made up for marketing. Like, they historically were made up by white people to sell records. And so we don't really label our genres in that way. That's not how like, our genres come to be. Just like if you ask elders about dancing, what dances they were doing, they'll just say, Oh, I was just dancing. And so when it comes to like labelling, this genre, that is coming to be, the label I generally use is New R'n'B, which is kind of like an overarching one that I've heard more Black people use to describe their own music. I've also heard Alternative R'nB, which, who knows what that means? Are they just saying that it's not baby making music but like -
Sarah Spoon:no babies were made in the production of this
Grey Armstrong:[dissolves into giggles] I love it [laughs] That record. Sorry, could got me! Yeah, I don't, I don't know what they mean. But basically, they're trying to find a new way of marketing, this emerging music, the things I like that is definitely happening is there's kind of a, what sounds like a reconvergence of hip hop, the music that hip hop sampled, and like, the innovative side of like instrumental music, and combining that all together, because hip hop kind of brings in like the electronics, the drum beats those kind of concepts. And then you added like, the lineage to the swing, the jazz the blues, that didn't turn into a rock that is evolving alongside of this and coming together to create this fascinating new genre of music. And I found this song and I became obsessed. It's so good. So like silky smooth, it's like, simultaneously fast and smooth. And I feel like that duality is such a big thing in like Black art in general. And it makes me so excited to see where we are continuing to go with the music. It is pulling from like the B laxploitation kind of feeling. But it's also pulling from like, what feels like to me like a hip hop element. And there and there's also the like, baby making R'n'B.
Sarah Spoon:And you know how we like to make those babies
Grey Armstrong:Making all the babies! And there's like, all of these things combined. And it's created this new thing that you can just listen to over and over and over again, and you will hear something different in style.
Sarah Spoon:Song number four features someone called Thundercat on bass, which I was delighted by, I was like, I'd love this song in principle.
Grey Armstrong:[laughs] But the question I have had is, how did Thundercat get that nickname!? Like everyone's you, you don't get to choose your own nickname, like someone gives you a nickname. Something like, what did you do?
Sarah Spoon:This one had a different kind of vibe, compared to the smooth, luxurious ride. That was Leon Bridges.
Grey Armstrong:Yes, I grew up with listening to a lot of my mother's music, which was 80s hip hop, which I love, and also is more humorous and funny than I would want to listen to on repeat. And so I was thinking about it. I was like, well, the Damn album was one I was listening to on repeat for about a year or two that I just love. And I returned to it really frequently. He's really in the, like, grounded but artsy side of things that I clearly dig. It's the artsy side of things.
Sarah Spoon:The blue hair's a bit of a giveaway.
Grey Armstrong:Yeah, you know that that helps. [laughs] I also just, I like this song, because it's so vulnerable. And it's also very much how I felt at different points in my life. I feel like a lot of the music I listened to, is focusing so much on the artsy side or so much on the creative bit, that they're not always vulnerable in this way that Kendrick is and also just kind of exploring his own feelings and emotions about everything I was like, I feel like I need to include something from this album. And whenever I'm feeling really alone, I love playing a song because it reminds me that I'm not the only one who feels that way at times. And that in and of itself is this beautiful thing. And there's so many interesting textures, and sounds that are chosen. And because it's Kendrick. Everything is so curated. I just love love that song. And like, the lyrical content can be hard for some people to listen to. For me personally, like I think they're I mentioned this earlier, this duality that shows up a lot in Black music that I love. And I don't often hear in other other cultures' music as much. And maybe that's because of like, context and our you know, pick a reason. I love that this is it's so raw, and it's so beautiful. And like the rhythms that he chooses to... to rap with, it like it flows with his anxiety about it. And it gives you the sense of like, his feelings and his wrongness that is so good. It gives me the sensations that I sometimes feel when I'm about to have a panic attack, but I'm not yet. which feels sounds weird to be like why would you want to go back to that? That headspace. But there's something so very present about that. You are aware of your feelings, you're aware of yourself, you're aware of yourself in this place, you're aware of how big everything is, and how overwhelming everything is. And then to like, be able to step out of that and look at it. And see not only how overwhelming... but also how beautiful all the details are. And all the paint strokes that bring this thing together into the singular moment of just like heightened awareness. And you can kind of like breathe in the reality of the moment. And then make choices about what you want that to look like moving forward.
Sarah Spoon:The next song is very different to Kendrick's
Grey Armstrong:I view music in relationship to my relationships. Like for instance, I said earlier, oh, that's my mom's music, which is the 80s hip hop. So each relationship has its person and its music that is kind of tied to them as an identity and how they grew up. And that is a lens to help me understand them through understanding their music. And also it can play like a backdrop to our relationship. It can be a lot of different things in one of the most important relationships in my life, if not the most important was with my grandfather when I was younger, who is no longer with us and hasn't been for a while now. But it was him that I got my love of blues and swing from, because that was the music that he played around the house. And I considered for a while if I should just pick a blues or swing song to play I highlight that relationship. Because it's like, it's important to me to put that in there. And as I said, listening to my giant backlog of songs, the song came on. Like, it is something that is a beautiful reminder of him and our relationship and what he meant to me. And also like, through that, I can look at so many of the other songs and things that he taught me, not through the eyes of grief, but through the eyes of love and affection and fondness. Miny grandfather called me smiley face. That was my nickname. And one of the things I got from him was this concept of like, you should always keep smiling. Even if things are hard, or things are going wrong, or people are being mean or cruel or whatever. You should be aware that people may try to hurt you and smile in your face and that kind of thing. But like, you should also be willing to keep being you keeping yourself continuing to smile, because that's just such a such a part of my personality.
Sarah Spoon:Let's crack on with the shortest track in your list. A really lovely bit of acoustic blues from Eric Bibb.
Grey Armstrong:I love Eric Bibb so much. Eric Bibb, I found from a friend of mine. I was asking for songs about grief. And I found Eric Bibb through her, and I had heard some of this stuff before but I became obsessed after that. I just liked his work. So he's a contemporary blues musician. But he's very traditional. I say that I hear in my head, 'trad blues' as I think it's not a thing to the people out there who use the phrase trad blues to distinguish fusion and blues. Trad blues is just blues. So he's a blues musician. But he uses ideas and things that are really from the roots of the musical genre. And I really love that. It's just good. There's something so calming, about like just a good acoustic blues player, and a guitar, maybe a harmonica, the emotion that you can bring out with such limitations is just so delightful. One of the things that my student and I are talking about is, like the lineage of values that get passed on to Black music , and why some artists are great musicians, but don't play the blues as like, a concept, they don't really get it. And one of the differences we came up with it's like there's a certain feeling and a certain lag in the music of being able to get into the groove properly. And a certain like awareness of time that say musicians like Stevie Ray Vaughan, amazing guitarist, and amazing blues musician, and yet doesn't quite capture the feeling the mood, the story behind the song.
Sarah Spoon:Do you think that parallels can be drawn between dancing blues and dancing The Blues?
Grey Armstrong:Yeah, I think that's one of the things that people who who aren't Black struggle with the most of trying to figure that out. And in some classes we've, we've tried to codify into 'Well, it's ephebism, and it's these concepts, and it's this and it's that. And it's not, not true. But also, there's a certain amount of 'learning how to feel it' that is a cultural touchstone that we don't have language for, because again, we don't label things like that. So like, you just kind of have to learn it. And until you learn it, it will always feel slightly off to people who know it, from the outside it looks the same, but it's what I call in class sometimes, like it's an invisible train, it's going it's there the whole time. But if you can't hear it, if you don't know it's there, you don't know it's there. The distinction between playing the blues, or dancing, the blues, and dancing, blues, or playing blues music is an equivalent of an invisible train. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. But if you haven't been taught it, it's harder to know that you're missing it. Or that the people you're watching are missing it. So my student has said, I've ruined music for him! Because now he can't, he can't listen to white blues bands and not hear what's not happening. And he's like, Now I see why you and all the other black dancers are upset when the music is exclusively or primarily from white musicians. It's not about them being white, but it's about this quality meaning missing. It's like a foreign, it's like a language. You can be born into a household that speaks that language and pick it up. And you don't know why you picked it up, you just know that this is just the way it is. And then there are people who are not at all related to it who are just interested. And that's like you can get a basic level ability to speak the language all the way to fluency. And make some people become so fluent, you can't tell they didn't grow up in that atmosphere. Most people do not. Most people achieve a base level fluency. And then they stop because they're like 'ahh good enough'. And so when I think about those aspects that tie Black music together those invisible trains, to me, most of those things are fluency issues. I'm a big fan of Justin Timberlake. Some of his music is exactly what you think it is. But you know, the man's got to make his money. But most of his music, particularly the songs that are not as popular are where you start to see his fluency come in, that he went to Black church, that he spent time in Black spaces, you start to see that he's above conversationalist in terms of his fluency in Black culture as a concept and Black music. But he's not quite so fluent. You don't know he's not Black.
Sarah Spoon:Do you think it's possible for someone to have people who are Black, who have that fluency writing for them, and then they get to enjoy the benefits of that sound?
Grey Armstrong:So there's a concept that comes up in blues causes about lag where it's dancing behind the beat. And when you when you talk to students, when they first running into this concept, they're like, Okay, so what part of the beat? Do you mean the'e'? What, like, where, and you're like, there's the one. And then like, somewhere in here is where you do the thing. And they're like, but this is the beat. And then they'll struggle to try, and you can tell them over and over that this is what they're supposed to do. And they will think they're doing it even, at some point. And that's often the issue you run into, when people have some conversational knowledge, but not fluency. They get it, but they don't get it. You'll hear it with musicians and older Black people a lot. They don't have 'soul'. And I'm like, what does soul mean? And that's what it, that's what they're referring to.
Sarah Spoon:Next up, we have feel by Jacob Collier featuring Lianne la Havas. And I've literally just realized now that this is the second song called'Feel' on your playlist.
Grey Armstrong:[laughs] I have a lot of feelings like so... It's what I'm realizing. Yeah, I didn't realize that until you said it. So, Jacob Collier is a musician I happen to cross, again, I was getting ready for a gig. And I found this song. That was incredible. It was really fun. But I had a really unique sound to it. Jacob Collier, his music is so enveloping that I can't do other things and listen to his music. So I put off listening to it for a long time. And then eventually I was like stuck in traffic. So I was like, it seems like a great time, cuz I'm not doing anything and I'm stuck in this car. And I put it on and I became obsessed with all of his songs that I've heard and that he does have that fluency we were talking about earlier. But it's so complicated and it's so rich. And he does such interesting things with harmony. It reminds me of this project I had as a kid where you had color pencils that blended together. But my instructor said you can't use black. You have to make the color black. So if you want dark colors, you have to be able to blend it into that shade. And I have that artwork and I still keep it because you can see every single stroke of colors I put into that black and his music is like that. And then he adds in the singer, His voice is so complimentary, and they build this like this soundscape that is intense, and beautiful and complicated. And also like it's as complicated as you want it to be. The closer you get into it, the more nuts you realize like this piece is and all of his music is
Sarah Spoon:juxtapose this with your next song, which is so very different in sound. I mean, it's a really good track, because it starts in a place and then shifts to somewhere that makes total sense, but feels unexpected at the same time. It's almost like a movie in one song, very proggy. But that's I'm not saying it like it's a bad thing. Yeah, it stands out on your playlist.
Grey Armstrong:I like to listen to a lot of different genres of music, I definitely am most invested in weird music. And I happen to heavily lean towards this new developing genre. But I do also listen to a lot of other things like prog and things like that. And this is a band that I found and really like, and I didn't get metal or rock for a very long time growing up, because I just didn't listen to it. And so I forced myself to learn how to like it, along with like, classical music and country through basically, I would listen to some songs until I hated it, and I turn it off, and I turn it back on. And I tried to find something to appreciate, in the music, no matter what the genre was, because people were making it for a reason. Just because I couldn't hear why doesn't mean it doesn't have value. It doesn't mean it's not artistically fulfilling. It doesn't mean it's not interesting. There has to be something to it. And with rock, specifically, what was hard is like, the sounds are so intense, that it felt like I was trying to see color under black, like everything was black, or if they have like very, very rich, dark, deep colors. But like, you only can stare at a black image for so long before you're like well, this is this is what this is okay. Then what I found was, the longer you looked at it, and the more you tried to see what was happening underneath it, the more you started to be able to understand the textures and see where things were going and like get a sense of what was occurring underneath the rich black color. And it became this like beautiful unfolding of this musical genre that previously to me just sounded like all noise or It sounded like it had no soul. So I started to like metal. And then a friend of mine told me his favorite genre was prog rock. And I was like, he's really cool. He's really into music. Let me figure out what this means. And I want to see what he appreciates about this! And I turned it on, and I hated it. And I think I went and I asked him why. And he told me, and he told me, he basically said he saw these things. And it was like, I see nothing but black and sound and like, real sharp things. Like why are you listening to this. And so I was like, Okay, I respect his musical tastes. He's a great musician, because we met in like, a big band or something. So like, there has to be something here. So I kept listening and kept listening and kept listening, until I started finding things that I liked. And over time, it's developed into this very occasional, but really exciting part of my musical library is like, metal and prog rock, where I'll just go down this, what feels like totally not related, at all, road. But what I find is like, besides the fact that like, rock came out of Black stuff, like there's that, but like, has kind of developed and got it's own roots separately at this point, is like, there's this artistic quality to it, this these layers are still present. It's just a different language. And I don't speak it fluently. Like I don't understand everything. But I find it fascinating to experience and to see as it comes in and comes out and to experience the journey and learn to appreciate what is so different from the music I was raised with, or the music that I'm kind of like tracking as it develops. its own like, other artistic medium that is beautiful and strange. It's It's so weird, it feels like little raindrops, like watching little raindrops and all the space but it just it builds and it builds in this three dimensional space that I've been kind of talking about. And so it feels like it's it's this emerging painting. It's an emerging vision of layers and layers and layers and layers and layers. And then it gets weird and exciting. And you're like[whispers] where did you go? Like why don't you just kind of like damage the thing you were just building but it's like the frailty of the fact that like, nothing can exist forever. It's just everything is transforming all the time and the song is always Building and it's not particularly going anywhere. Like it does kind of come back home, but it doesn't like shy away from going weird places on the journey there. But also I like it just because it If nothing else, it reminds you that there's so many more disciplines to music. And just because it's not the one you grew up with, or it's not the one Your ears are attuned to you does not make it's not like there's not an art or craft or an idea or purpose behind it.
Sarah Spoon:Penultimate track, Ms. Lauryn Hill. Where do you want to start with that?
Grey Armstrong:I was realizing that I didn't have any women artists on my playlist, which I thought was really intriguing. And so I was like, okay, is that okay by me? And I said, No, it's not. But if that's the case, who would I want? Or like, Do I want multiple people and I looked into a lot of different categories and ultimately, I love Lauryn Hill, I love Lauryn Hill a lot. She's just done such good work. Even with the little work that has been done.[laughs] And like she only has the one album, but the album is so full, it's so rich, it's so like, a lot of things and I love the strength in it. I love the like... the richness of of her voice in the like I say like pinks and greens and oranges. It's just like a really good sunrise. And there's something really like evocative about that. No matter what she's singing about. It's like more upbeat or more chill but
Sarah Spoon:song is playing. What is happening? What are you doing?
Grey Armstrong:This song, I guess, depends. So the first part of the song is definitely I feel like I'm in a hammock. I'm just kind of relaxing. And say something bad has happened, where there's like, the next thing to do to prepare the island to be better. Or if I'm trying to get off the island or what have you, the thing I need to be motivated for would be kind of the height of the song and kind of carry me out of like, okay, I rested. And now it's time to build that house, to make that fire, to go off into the woods. So we've got it, we're gonna do it. It's time. Build that house. Build that fire. Get that coconut.
Sarah Spoon:So number 10. How did this song come to you?
Grey Armstrong:Again, looking for music. I'm a sucker for like, weird, voicemail ish type things interludes. I love it. It's a thing that in sampling is probably one of my favorites. It gives you an insight and what that person likes in their spare time. Do they like old movies? Do they like Nina Simone do they Like Seinfeld, which is this clip. And as I sing along, I was like, I really enjoy why Seinfeld club like, that's you're making Seinfeld music, like, how are you doing? What are you gonna do with this? And I was feeling very alone at the time, I kind of overwhelmed by trying to connect with others. And I remember hearing this song. And the Seinfeld part came on. I was like, That's really funny. So I started cackling, because I grew up, my mom really liked Seinfeld. So I watched Seinfeld as a kid. And then everything changes. I was like, oh, what's happening? What's the story and it's like, very, it's a very big, juicy story and was like, Oh, that's a really interesting relationship. And like, that, this is something you're both into and excited about. And like, the Seinfeld clips in between was just, like, so strange. But so good. And I remember listening to that song on repeat and being like, you know, there's someone out there that loves Seinfeld enough to like, have it be a pivotal part of their song. I think it's, it's amusing and funny, because it just shows like, How weird humanity is. But also, there's somebody out there, that's gonna play this for romantic interest. And romantic interest is gonna be like [puts on a high pitch voice] 'you remembered!', or it's gonna be like their thing. And and that just is, it just makes me love people and the weirdness of people. Part of the reason I put it at the end was because I feel like it ties all of the things together, that I really liked from a lot of the other pieces into one piece. It's definitely that kind of emergent genre that's coming out, it's got elements of this, elements of that, it's complex, it's, like, pulls from a lot of different genres into creating this new art form. Which, like, if you took the Seinfeld out, it would not be as good. And that is just mind blowing as a concept. And also, I'd love the weirdness of that. And I can never listen to this song and not giggle a little bit just at the Seinfeld bit and how, like, who wrote this? Who wrote this and was like, you know, I'm gonna make Seinfeld sexy that's what I'm gonna do. [laughs]
Sarah Spoon:would you like to introduce the track?
Grey Armstrong:This is, The Need to Know , Wale featuring SZA. So good. It's so weird. It's so good. I love it so much.
Sarah Spoon:But you wouldn't make babies to it.
Grey Armstrong:I would not make babies to it because I would be giggling too much at Seinfeld. I appreciate that they made Seinfeld sexy, I do not know I personally view Seinfeld as sexy enough to override my desire to giggle at Seinfeld ridiculousness.
Sarah Spoon:Sexy beat though.
Grey Armstrong:It was a sexy beat. It's really good
Sarah Spoon:Second well, second confirmed sexy beat.
Grey Armstrong:I do like some sexy beats. Yes.
Sarah Spoon:Sexy beats, feelings. artsy stuff, duality, more artsy stuff and acoustic guitars. That's your tick list right there.
Grey Armstrong:That's a lot. That's a lot of my musical interests! [laughs]
Sarah Spoon:And that was our episode. Thank you so much for listening. You can find Grey's writings on obsidiantea.com there's OBSIDIANTEA.com and I strongly encourage you to go and support his Patreon which is patreon.com forward slash obsidian tea. You can find Grey kind of on Instagram with@obsidiantea and@greyarmstrongdance. He's a little more active on Facebook. Speaking of Instagram, if you would like to follow the podcast then you can follow us @Desert slandJams. imaginative u ername. You can also support u on Patreon if you'd like to t at's patreon.com forward slash d sert island jams. If you're a r gular listener, leaving review m kes little podcasters like me v ry, very happy. Desert Island j ms is produced by me Sarah S oon. The graphic design is by S rah Azmy. And you can find her o Instagram @sazmy_desi ns. The music license is supp rted by voicesculptor.com. Th excellent theme song was p ovided by Jonathan Stout. f you'd like the transcript, e have the link to it in the sho notes. And you can find those i every episode. Thanks again for listening Desert Island Ja s. We'll return next month.